My car crash in Thailand looks to be far from over. I had to attend the cop shop today to go and try to strike some kind of 'deal' with the other party. He's all better now, and turned up to the meet.
Obviously these occasions are fairly awkward, but knowing myself that I did everything within my power to not kill the man is something of a comfort to me.
Anyway, after talking to the police individually, myself and our law guy sat inside a room at the police station with 5 or 6 others from their party. It was apparent immediately that they, especially the old fella, were not very happy.
The old boy began by berating the cops for not 'taking me to jail,' and then proceeded to call me the Thai equivalant of a 'cocksucker,' several times over...
In Thai society, this is considered something of bad manners.
Laughably, although I was aware there was a bit of emotion flying about, I had no idea of the content, and so just sat there nodding...
Bottom line ... the guy wants me to pay for 1. hospital bills 2. all his families travel and food expenses 2. his relatives travel and food expenses (many coming down from the furthest, most northern regions of the kingdom, funnily enough 4. 'special' medicine? whatever that is, no-one can explain plus 5. money for, er, general compensation.
Total - they want 80,000 baht
I have learned (and accepted) that it is customary for those involved in a road accidents in Thailand, where the other party has been injured (regardless of blame) to pay a portion of the bill .... It is not Thai law, more of a good will gesture.
I am more than happy to take part in this process, but, I refuse to take responsibility for this figure because 1. he was not wearing a helmet 2. had he been insured, this would have negated much of the medical costs 3. the fact that he managed to drive his motorcycle in front of my car was the cause of the accident and 4. the police have confirmed that it was completely not my fault....
So, my offer of 20,000 baht, which I believed to be more than generous, would suffice.. Right?
Wrong!
They refused???!!!!
Looks like the Thai Pirate may well being going to Thai court.
endnote: I am still glad the miserable, money grabbing old fool made it out alive... A point I feel they have completely overlooked.
WOW Ben, 80k!! That is crazy, you're right in saying that even 20k is a lot.
Good on you for sticking to your guns, I hope things works themselves out.
Thai people are usually incredibly hospitable and friendly, looks like this lot have gone compensation crazy.
Posted by: Jon | January 05, 2010 at 04:31 PM
Wow! Sorry to hear it's going this way for you. Don't feel bad though it goes the same way for Thai's too. My girls motorcy accident with another motorcy was deemed as no fault by the police but my girl still had to go to the cop shop and play the game. The other woman wanted 50k baht and berrated my girl who smiled and left.
'special' medicine? Come on ...everyone knows that's slang for Thai Whiskey, and since he thinks you're paying it's the good stuff.
Posted by: Talen | January 05, 2010 at 06:54 PM
It's insane that you should have to pay anything at all since the accident was not your fault and agreed to by the cops. It's a shame this old guy is getting so greedy, he should take his 20k and be happy with it. Would be nice if he used it to buy a helmet and some insurance too HAHA!
Posted by: Steve | January 05, 2010 at 08:29 PM
Thanks for the comments. Although not pleasant it is giving me valuable insights into the culture, good and bad. I'm reluctant to overly critisize the people involved as I know that during such times emotions do run high, but there is definitely a line, and I've found it tricky to find. My advice to anyone involved in a similar event is to get a local lawyer rather than deal with these things solo.
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 05, 2010 at 10:55 PM
So, after you have the court costs + lawyer costs, are you still going to offer 20K THB when you win?
Are they thinking the coksucker just feels really bad and will give them all he can to keep them happy, or?
I don't really understand their thought process...
I know a friend who had 2 brain surgeries in Ubon. 3 Thais on a motorbike flew out in front of him and he plowed into them - all of them had nice injuries... nobody asked him for $ though. He didn't ask them either. The total bill for his major injuries was 35,000 THB. He stayed in the hospital for 2 weeks. Not sure where you were when the accident happened, guess it could have been much more in BKK.
At any rate, you're doing the right thing by offering something. 20K baht I think is the perfect amount. Hope they eventually think the same...
Posted by: Vern | January 06, 2010 at 01:24 AM
Thanks Vern, I think 20k is about right. To be honest, the whole thing is completely out of the blue and a massive learning curve, if it does go to court, I have no idea what the procedures are... I think they are considered locally as 'a bad lot', and this is backed up by the way they spoke to me and the police.
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 06, 2010 at 03:04 AM
PS Talen - I think you're spot on with the Thai whiskey 'special' medicine - How did I miss that one! :P
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 06, 2010 at 03:05 AM
Ben thanks for sharing this. Personally I don't see why you should pay 1 Baht.
Did your lawyer advise the amount you offered?
Incidentally he should have been covered by his Thai Government compulsory insurance. (if he had it)which would cover his medical costs.
I would also ask the police if they will be prosecuting him for the traffic violation and lack of insurance if that is the case.
I hope things turn out well, your input on this is very important for those of us who live here. So once again thanks for sharing.
Posted by: Mike | January 06, 2010 at 03:56 AM
Hi Mike, great stuff, that's my intention.
Lawyer advised the amount. Said it was customary and a good will gesture (not that it was met with good will, although in other circumstances, with other Thai people, I'm sure it might be)
Police seem to have surprisingly little say, other than to mediate, and I think at a later stage advise on whether it should go to court....
I get the feeling there will be an attempt at more negotiation before we get to the court bit though...
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 06, 2010 at 04:10 AM
I remember commenting on this some time ago. If it wasn't your fault don't pay a thing because it will come back on you. It doesn't matter what the tradition is if you pay up it's an admission of guilt and it could lead to more damages.
The Thai police aren't saying anything because they will be getting a proportion of whatever you pay as a kickback from the old man. The only reason they are there is for this reason. They have no interest in the old man and couldn't care less about his health or whether he was in the right or wrong. It's customary when Thais fill out a claim report with the police they will agree what percentage will be handed over - typically about 40%. If they don't offer money the police will just ignore the case.
Posted by: Leosia | January 06, 2010 at 05:42 AM
Leosia, grim, but interesting.. I will have to ask the Thai folks here to get their POV on the police issue ... Expats who find themselves in situations like this need to toe the line to some extent.. It could be more risky if I told them all to 'go whistle'....
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 06, 2010 at 07:22 AM
PS Leosia, on the police issue, do you have personal experience of this?
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 06, 2010 at 07:24 AM
Yes. I lived outside Bangkok for two years in Bang Saray (Chonburi). It became apparent that local police "take care" of their friends and family. As for the rest, it's down to how much you pay. I've witnessed several examples through close friends but fortunately never been involved in an accident.
One particularly interesting case was the illegal (as in from Cambodia with no papers and no license) driver of a truck who worked for a very prominent and wealthy owner of nearby tropical gardens. The driver of the truck ran over and instantly killed a security guard who we all knew and who had a wife and two kids. The family were paid 100,000 baht in cash and "told" in no uncertain terms not to take it any further. It was impossible that the police did not know about this since it happened around 9am in front of a busy market. And these people talk! None of the trucks have licenses, lights, or adequate braking. But there were no repercussions. It's the same place where several western tourists in the last ten years have been killed by heavy footed elephants, only to get similar compensation several years after the incidents.
On another occasion my friend who runs a large business providing industrial services in the Eastern Seaboard area split from a business partner who was under contract not to steal customers, contracts or sales staff. He did, to the value of 2 million baht. They had computer and video evidence of this. When the project manager reported this to the police and asked for assistance to take him to court there was nothing. No action, just silence. Two weeks later the PM went back to the station and, in front of the officer he had filed the report with, simply wrote "40%" at the top of the form and gave it back. He never said a word. 30 minutes later a senior officer called back, was polite and was delighted to help. 40% works out as a tidy 800,000 baht kickback in cash.
Sorry for the long reply!
Posted by: Leosia | January 06, 2010 at 08:10 AM
Not at all Leosia, thanks for your comment, it all adds to the flavour... ;)
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 06, 2010 at 08:14 AM
Sorry to read Thai greed is causing you stress at a time you should be enjoying your new found family life.
What is said about any payment made by you, or on your behalf, as being an admission of guilt is only true if the payment is made in such a context that this would be true. A gratuitous payment made by your legal council with clear stipulation any payment is as such should not be viewed as such in a court of law.
Thai courts are surprisingly level playing fields and very few Thai's will want to step foot in a court room unless they are paid to or are absolutely sure of their chances. I have had two legal battles in Thailand, both brought on our company by Thai's we have had some for of business agreement with. In both case we were in the right and won however we are yet to receive any compensation for costs etc as this would require us taking the matter back to court to enforce the judgement, which is just not worth it.
In April my wife was in a major motorcycle accident where her mother was seriously injured, the accident was caused by the other party turning in front of them from the wrong side of the road, he was drunk. Like you I gave the other family a token payment even though it was his fault. However had they asked for any money I would have refused. If I was you I would ask that your insurance company take care of the matter is this is usually part of the claim.
Posted by: Lloyd | January 06, 2010 at 04:06 PM
Sorry to hear about your wifes and mothers accident Lloyd, it sounds a bit similar to our accident.
Thanks for the advice - I am trusting our law guy to know his stuff and ensure any payments are conditional.
This lot I am having the displeasure of dealing with are not very nice people, they have come in 'hard,' and refuse to accept any fault at all (which is totally out of order). I suppose in a way, this 'strategy' has worked, as because they have made lots of noise, we have upped the figure accordingly (I was initially thinking 10k). However, the more insults / arguing that occurs from this point, the less I want to give them anything.
Our insurance company have paid our costs and refuse to pay theirs.
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 06, 2010 at 10:20 PM
It's a tricky situation and it s indeed custom to pay something. However, considering the way the old guy treats you, I would reciprocate in a similar style but without words and offer nothing, it wasn't your fault, even according to the cops. Is that in black and white???
Regarding the cops getting a kick back, definately, otherwise they wouldn't even get involved.
Posted by: Camille | January 06, 2010 at 11:23 PM
Hi Ben
I feel really sorry for the situation you are in. All I can say is that this is completely normal here. Accident compensation is not based on fault but on the relative wealth of the parties involved. The other party are being greedy and if they have completely rejected your offer, a better way out of this situation might be to "give a donation" to the local police. As no one has died, the police don't really want to be involved other than to be compensated for their "assistance". It is a sad fact that in most Farang vs Thai cases of this kind, Police sympathies will normally be for the Thai party for both patriotic and mercenary reasons.
Posted by: Uthen Kamsurin | January 06, 2010 at 11:52 PM
Ben the fact your insurance company won't cover any of the other parties costs is a pretty fair idea where they stand legally.
I have no doubt if you simply walk away and make a 'fair' donation to the police the matter will soon be forgotten. One thing I have found is that most Thai's with this sort of attitude don't get very much sympathy or help from anyone and tend to learn the hard way that for the most part mutual respect begets fair compensation.
Posted by: Lloyd | January 07, 2010 at 04:28 AM
Some really great advice and insight here. Thanks for all the comments..
I am going to investigate the police donation method, with the guy acting as he did at the station I am fairly sure now he has reduced any sympathy he may have had... I don't want there to be any bad feeling, but with some people that's impossible (although I do expect I will end up giving them the money offered so far).
Insurance company / the Thai police / courts etc. Although I am totally out of my depth, the one thing I am sure of is my reactions, which are pretty good; there was nothing more I could have done to avoid hitting this guy... The police confirmed that I wasn't driving too fast, due to the distance between my car and the point of impact, and the lack of any skid marks on the road..
Be careful out there!
Posted by: Ben Shingleton | January 07, 2010 at 05:03 AM